spk_0: 0:00
wait 20 questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is Vincent Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race and United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests from all walks of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations. Welcome. Today we have a guest from North Carolina, Charlie Ribbons, who is a pastor, and he is here sharing with us today on white ice. We're gonna talk about race again. One of the statements that was made by United Methodist years ago was that racism, churches, unfinished business. We're still trying to figure out what that means. Um, the obvious question First Charles is that you believe that racism is still the most challenging issue for church in society today.
spk_1: 1:43
I wouldn't say the most, but I feel that race is probably the second biggest problem that we're facing.
spk_0: 1:53
Okay, okay, in this denomination, we have been since murder's been 50 years since merger. So what would you give on a scale of 1 to 10 grade for United Methodist and dealing with the issue of race
spk_1: 2:09
six and 1/2?
spk_0: 2:10
Six. Okay. Okay.
spk_1: 2:12
I really don't think we've dealt with it, Okay, that we've buried it under the carpet and pretend like it's gone away.
spk_0: 2:19
Okay. Okay. Is there Is there some specific place that you think? Um, it would have been an opportunity to deal with it? Or is that just kind of a general statement that we haven't?
spk_1: 2:32
What? We haven't dealt with it when it comes to make an appointment. We all go to the same seminary. We were graded out the same with classes at seminary. We all have different gifts and talents. But in Western North kinda conference, there's a $20,000 average difference between black clergy salary and white clergy salaries. You explain that to
spk_0: 2:53
me. Yeah, that's a difference. The merger happened in 68 we were here now in 2018. Do you think that merger has either because it hindered or has it has it helped us to really reach our potential?
spk_1: 3:10
Well, if you're talking about pre 1968. I was living then, but I really wasn't paying the church much attention. But if I look at my C mea mea am Design Brothers and I look at their struggles and I look at the struggles that we have in the black church, I can't say that is worse. I just think it could have been approached a lot differently if we're going to be United Methodists, I don't think we're united.
spk_0: 3:39
So most of our churches that that, you know, I don't know about North Carolina, but but where I live are in decline that they're in decline, are closing or closed. You know, this is this period of 50 years has really been a challenge. Do you think that there's any place that we could Oh, turned the tide? You feel option forth at this point for churches in your annual conference?
spk_1: 4:05
Absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, we need to redefine and read Brand who we are. I'm not sure we know who we are when we look at West Land theology and then look at the theology being preached today, that's confusing, and then we're not training and developing our black and brown church is the same as we are doing with the white charges we look at. The money's been spending grants and development. It's really to train the white church, but not the black and brown.
spk_0: 4:36
And so we are in a place that needs to recognize. Why's that? These air, these critical issues for for growth? Because that's what we're always hearing about his growth and making sure that way have ah, movement forward. Is there any places you can think of what we have gotten in our own weight as African Americans in the church?
spk_1: 4:58
Yeah, there's some areas were still divided, And so any time you divided, you easily conquered and and the second part is we don't trust one another. We've allowed the world to tell us that we need to continue the copied of the mythology of the crab syndrome instead of doing like other races and coming together. When black people start spinning at least one percent of their money back in their own neighborhoods, then people will pay us attention.
spk_0: 5:26
Yeah, the relevant yeah, the churches that are unable to nail are surrounded by people who don't look like many of us and so many of those churches that used to be in communities that look like us aren't there anymore. And so how do we how do we move into that kind of place of some cooperative on collaborative work, economically on building community in a way that would be helpful to the group rather than as you said, You know, if someone kind of rises up, you're pulling down till what are some places are some things that you would maybe said Yes, that we could look at tryingto make that try trying to get out of our way.
spk_1: 6:09
Well, when you start looking at demographics in different areas, you will see right now in most major cities that the blacks and browns give us the greatest potential of growth. But we're declining. We will move out of an area that is being consumed with black and Brown, and we would sell that property instead of re develop that property for those demographics as one way, the other thing again is re branding yourself. We have a bad brand because we have practice separatism too long. Now it's time to try to practice united.
spk_0: 6:43
Yeah, I think the separatism is I think it's why the question still remains that we've we've got unfinished business. Is that 11? A. Someone has said enough. Dr King before him is the most cigarette hour of the day on, so we still have to deal with that. Plus how we work into context with community Black method is our have always been a part of the movement, struggled civil rights movement. Do you think that there's a knopper to nitty or chance that we could have something similar to the energy we got doing those days to help in motivating and moving us forward today? Is there some kind of mechanism I know that would help us do that today?
spk_1: 7:30
If you're speaking of the history black Methodist white Methodists have had with social justice, then yes, we need to be at the table and continue to be at the table. But today we've become so politically correct that we're not based in things on the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. We're basing it on theory in and interjecting things that's politically correct. We are a Protestant church with Protestant values, with 25 articles of religion set up by the United Methodist Church and that's who we need to remain.
spk_0: 8:06
Um, that that has, ah, great value. I think how we continue Azaz black Methodist on dhe. That kind of leaves me because I have a question about how, with b m t r. What are some of the things that you've seen? I don't know what you're history is or how you work with the organization. But what plans do you know of that? BMC are has to help, you know, kind of bridge and transition us as we as we are in this place a za race number one and in this place as a denomination, number two that we don't have these these better relationship, that our relationship still aren't where they should be racially.
spk_1: 8:48
Well, the reason I sacrificed my time to come here to better understand the row b, m c r. Have and planned tow have with the separatism of races in the church. And and I feel that what I'm seeing and realizing here it may be much better than I anticipated. Honestly. And then I look at my conference, BMC are there still wrestling with pre 1968 issues when we have 2018 issues that needs to be addressed. Not tomorrow. Right now, we need to deal with fairness. Right now, we need to learn that Christ has has a kingdom for all people right now. So it's not a black thing, a white thing, a brown thing is the God thing. And when we make it a God thing, I think we can make a difference.
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The church is is facing some critical issues the General Church in the next few months. Excellent and one of those issues. In fact, the main issue is dealing with human sexuality. How do you think that's impacted the black church?
spk_1: 9:56
I think that I was in our city for 11 years in that nam in a rural setting, and I believe in the rule setting. It has impacted the white church Maur, then the black church number one, number two. I don't I don't think we've dealt with Scripture enough to make a decision. I think we're still playing politics. Instead of looking at the Protestant Bible and an exit eating Scripture properly and coming up with what is and what is not saying. We're still debating over what, what what is and what is not saying, but we're ready to make a decision. I think we'll put in the cart before the horse
spk_0: 10:35
the issues that that a lot of us have me in particular with generational pieces. You have Children that in one generation have grandchildren who are another. You have parents one another as you look at your place in this world, especially generationally. How could you help people in your own generation become Maur authentic in their in their relationships as it relates to race?
spk_1: 11:04
But first we need to be authentic ourselves way. We need to have honest conversations. My sons who were were different places and we have honest conversation. I respect them. They respect me. But more importantly, when their friends around, we can still have the same conversation. And it's not about condemning. Our are being afraid to speak. Never raised my boys to be that way. But we can have this on. If we do this with the rest of the people, maybe we would learn something. Maybe we would grow to a better place.
spk_0: 11:40
Well, Charlie, I tell you, I appreciate you sharing with me today and being on the program. Is there anything you would like to share before we before we close today,
spk_1: 11:51
I guess my frustration with the church's Why are we calling ourselves united in a society when you can go in most social groups in the country. Blacks, Browns, Dwight's party celebrate do everything together except worship. But we call ourselves United were supposedly the trans centers, and we're still practicing separatism. Instead of opening a church, we opened a black church of Brown Church, a white church. Why can't we just open the United Methodist Church in love people?
spk_0: 12:27
Yeah, I think that's a great state recently that and appreciate you coming out and hanging out with me because this is a we don't talk to you at another point time and thank you for being a part of way.