spk_0: 0:00
wait 20 questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is Vincent Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race, United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests from all walks of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations. Today. We are still talking about racism, churches, unfinished business here today with Austin Frederick, who is a good friend as well as a colleague. He works San Antonio area and has been a part of United Methodist Church for years on Has various experiences on insight on race. I'm gonna ask the obvious question first, do you believe racism remains of the most challenging issue for the church and society today?
spk_1: 1:40
Briefly, yes, it is. I think it's doing well because it's been mask under what I have labeled as liberal racism. The church and society know the right words to say to diffuse our, uh, pushing on, uh is masked by, uh, token kinds of appointments, token kinds of gestures in regards thio race. But yet I believed out for me some of my experiences that is, liberal racism that is really challenging and what we face. How do you challenge those that speak about supporting you? And that's a hard conversation because they don't want to hear it because they think they're doing right by you. So why would you raise questions to someone that comes across at least verbally as your friend and supporter? But yet at the same time, when push comes to shop in terms of especially within the point of process, they'll say it's not racism, but they will put it on something else. And so that's That's why I think it's doing that. It's alive and well.
spk_0: 2:59
You've seen the the years go by between 1968 in 18 2050 years of merger. Andi, how racist played an integral part and how people are seen on a scale of 1 to 10. Where would you place the United Methodist Church on its on its scale of dealing with race relations within the denomination?
spk_1: 3:28
I would give it a six. Okay, I go. I used a six because that's a positive side of five, and it's not all negative. But there's still a ways to go to get to 789 and 10 obviously, but I would give it a six Other things have. The church has re prioritized itself in various issues. Hunger, aids, all of those air worthy ministries and things. And again, where I see that that that mask with racism, that is in fact going on the church believes it's moved on. And it hasn't.
spk_0: 4:18
Yeah, when you say the church believes it's moved on, I think I have statistic somewhere along 90% Anglo, about 8% African American male. So So the church that you're speaking of is the broader church and those who majority.
spk_1: 4:39
And I'm talking about, not the Church of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about the institutional church.
spk_0: 4:46
Sure, with merger, I think there was some hopes. Do you think that merger has hindered our help? Three potential of black Methodist on their churches and leadership?
spk_1: 4:59
I think it is. It has hindered the potential okay on Dhe when I think about that question is that potential is something that is always there, and yet, when those instances in which the Methodist church and its leaders stifle that that potential or set up roadblocks, Uh, in in that those kinds of ventures that in that those instances, then then it hasn't hindered. We've lost the sense of with merger. Obviously, we've lost a sense of community and into relationships that would bolster the African Americans and churches. It's not a negative, but, um, when we take our leaders and we put them in other churches and or on boards and agencies serve beyond the local church, which is well and good and part of that the African Methodist Church has to own that they haven't stepped up to keep those leaders and, uh uh, and to grow them themselves.
spk_0: 6:26
Bill. Yeah, and I think that kind of leads into this place that I've been challenged with. Well, is that you know, most of our churches Anglo him an African American as well, But our church is particularly black community, have have been in decline. Closing are closed on. So, seeing that you've been around the denomination, what are some things that you think would be helpful that could turn the time not not in a real specifics of what? What are some ways that could do? It's addressed.
spk_1: 7:00
I don't think 11 is is is embracing who were called Toby. As as Methodist. I think one of the reasons for decline that's been part of my experiences as the district superintendent and assistant is that oftentimes we in our search for clergy leadership and lay leadership and this goes across all churches, is that we we get people from other denominations and they want to bring their faith traditions into play, which, if nothing, mortuary in jizz who we are as United Methodist One case in point would be again the appointive system win. You have lay leadership and some point, some cabinets lean towards a call system. That's not who we are. We are on a point of system, and that appointment has allowed for me, the Methodist Church, to to elevate and to help ethnic leadership in various places within the institutional church, which is good. But at the same time, we when we drift away from me when we drift away, whom we have, God has called us to be his Methodist United Methodist specifically, and we allow people with good intentions to bring their faith traditions and we do not. It's not up, it's not and either or it's a both and yet, but it is to say we have to be clear and who we are, and I think that would help us doing that.
spk_0: 8:46
One of the things that I think it's important to help us kind of new Ford on our own places that we get in our own way. A lot of times have you seen places where no African American churches leadership have really been obstacles to breaking down race relations rather than being helpful in that process. Where do you see that we have been in our own way? Wait,
spk_1: 9:15
when we cease to be and live out who we are, It's African amount. Methodist. When we have strong African American churches, we come from a position and of strength. Okay, we're not we're not begging for for for minimum salary were not struggling. When we have staff, church staff and things like that that that that shows a strong church, then we can challenge Okay, then we can give voice, but when you're when you're when you're when you're coming at it from a welfare mentality. Then you take cheese that's passed out
spk_0: 10:02
too. Yeah. Yeah. When we were a part of the movement to struggle, Way were engaged in civil rights activism. We did a lot that seemed to bolster the energy, the motivation and churches. Today, what would be that equivalent? Do we have anything that really helps us to gain the kind of pride, energy and focus that that the civil rights movement a lesson that
spk_1: 10:36
well, in the civil rights movement for me, we had a common enemy. Okay, a common motivator, if you will. And we've lost that thinking that we've gotten over or we have progressed to the point that that's no longer relevant or or or a question, um so again, to gain that is again, for me is a self actualization of self pride. And again, whom God has called us to be that we will find and be able to again to progress and claim what is rightfully ours. A za black church.
spk_0: 11:23
You sure you've been a member on attended being cr for a number of years? Do you know what kind of or is there? Ah, plan to address racism at all or has it become BMC are pumping about silent in the fight for racial justice?
spk_1: 11:46
Yeah, I think that B m c r has to be kind. Would be to say, the move has moved on. The leadership of B. M. C. R. Has not been a strong and his visionary a zit should be. I remember my first BMC are meeting where bishops led workshops teaching, equipping both lady and clergy that no longest takes place. To be honest with you, we get into plenary and next thing you know, we're off off the beaten track. I think that B M c. R. Has moved to a A, uh, which I think a lot of the African American churches have done is they have moved into a praise kind of of church style, as opposed to discipleship as opposed to Sunday schools or teaching kinds evangelism. All those kinds of things have have gone by the wayside and And what? What is replaced? Is that okay? All we want to do and older terms is shot him on Sunday. No. Okay, I've done that and and we have too many leaders. I believe that feel that that's all there is okay. And and, uh, that has my opinion crippled the church in regards to again sermons that that teach and equipped and inspire. It's now again, all about the hoop.
spk_0: 13:41
Well, you know, this is very important, I think, for people to hear, especially those who are not in the church, those who are trying to figure out what does it mean to be connected to God in the face citizenship. But also, when you talk about black Methodist, talk about United Methodist troubled racism, there has to be, I think, with this, some dealing with what has happened in the past of how we met with future. So a CE faras outcomes that concern you. Su sing. This is an outcome that you can think of that we would need to look for as we look into the future. What? What can we kind of envision as far as our relations with others race, especially blacks and united.
spk_1: 14:31
But I think again, wth the outcome for me is a strong, vibrant and relevant local church. The discipline has it right. That's where disciple making takes place. And when that happens, I mean it's it's it's a glory to God It's a glory to the community in which the church is located. Um, our our brothers and sisters of different kinds of races when they see that happening, Then I think again African Americans experience has led the way to other people's fighting for their rights, perhaps sometimes misguided. But But they they identify with our struggle, right? And, uh, and that's good in the sense of positive being an inspiration to them, but at same time, way, my opinion, have not taken it to the next level.
spk_0: 15:33
Yeah, this is, I'm going conversation that will have, especially as it relates to race and how we can began to impact. And it just doesn't go one way down a one way you can tell. We have to figure out how we deal with sails into the very near future, because we have changes that happen and the general church on. So the question becomes, How do we fit into this place? And how do we fit ourselves into this place? This is awesome. Fresh from today, he's coming into a shit with us, and I appreciate his time. Thank you for being a part of a conversation. This is white. You're talking