spk_0: 0:00
wait 20 questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is Vincent Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race and United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests from all walks of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations. Today we have Joe Daniels, a good friend of my way out here. I have a meeting, but call him and ask him to come in here with dates. Questions about this nomination that we have over here around race broke the old statements to be Joe's that racism, churches, unfinished business on climate that we're in today. I just want to give a few tips and insights from you because you got one of the leaders very kind racism, still the most challenging for the church.
spk_1: 1:51
I believe it is the issue. I believe that is the issue of which other issues really emanate from in this country. This country was built on racism And until we deal with that issue as the root of oppression in America than all oppression, race, immigration, all other oppression will not be resolved. You heard
spk_0: 2:19
probably earlier today that 8% of United Methodist Church people calling Yes, 90% Anglo. Tell me, can I was killed over the last 50 years in a row. I want to start out of it. But But what do you think we're waiting today for? How races
spk_1: 2:51
has a good question. Um, we'll scale 1 to 10. I I would give it in terms of how has been dealt with, uh, too. Okay, um, we barely mentioned it. We talk about it. Barely, I think, you know, mentioning the fact that it exists. We barely do that. But we do that. But much more than that, we don't deal with systemic causes way are afraid to really talk about it, Deal with it, head on, uh, or when we deal with it, we deal with it when the tragedy has happened. If we deal with it, when tragedies happen, we talk about it. Some folks will say I'm sorry, but wait, don't deal with systemic root causes of it on we don't seem to have the courage to to deal with truth. Usually that takes us to money, takes us to economics, takes us the power. Even when we talk about being a multicultural church way, I like to focus on the different colors of the rainbow we have within the church. We like to focus on different ethnicities, et cetera, But we're truly not multicultural until we examine um, who's in charge of the money? Who's bringing the money? Who makes the money decisions? Who were the people in power to make decisions in church? And so we have a long way to go way. Think we're closer and granted when you consider 50 years ago Now you come a very long way. Ah, a very, very long way. But we got a long way to go.
spk_0: 4:52
So so you think that has helped or hindered the potential four churches on leaders? The last 15 has emerged. Not going forward has that helped a lot of potential for churches himself. Well,
spk_1: 5:18
I think it has helped, and it has hindered, Um, I think it is help because it has enabled us as black people to see a much broader world. It's been a It has enabled us to step into places and spaces where we were left out of and to excel, to thrive. And without the merger, that would not have happened in many respects. I think it has hindered us from the stamp went off. I think we have left a lot of our black, cultural and traditional fire, particularly as it pertains to worship, particularly as it pertains the black life. Uh, I think in murdering and merging, we left a lot who we are behind trying to fit into this new thing. And, um, until we are really prepared toe authentically embrace everything we are the good, the bad, the ugly and great in our overall church experience worship, music, preaching, teaching, social justice, prophecy, organizing economic development. All of that until we're prepared to do that way won't be who we are. Fully. And Vince, I'm I'm one. I really am one who believes that the black churches, the salvation of the world. Okay, nobody has been through what we've been through from the middle passage along. No one has experienced the oppression that we have, and yet we're still standing and not a lot. We still standing in that case is we are still thriving. And so when we begin to tap into the root of who we are in God, I believe were the hope of the world the church
spk_0: 7:13
and I think you experienced. I think that when you when you get to a situation that has your co creating with God, you really are working in this place are trying to you really are. Now, what's God's plan? When you fellas,
spk_1: 7:38
which is still is we just call it?
spk_0: 7:43
Yes, because of what you saw with Klein possibility of closing and then around. You know, that closed United Methodist Church is that you saw, you know, what was it that that really motivated that process? What were some things that you said, You know, this is God's plan. This this is the work that I do servant. And this is how Before we make this, we're not gonna go of decline. We're gonna move into a new direction of hope and understanding that we are part and the church plays a major Carter.
spk_1: 8:28
So you asked what What was it yet?
spk_0: 8:30
What was it for you,
spk_1: 8:34
I when I was sent to Emory. I just I believe firmly that the church could live and the church needed to live, and it was my responsibility. As as the pastor Toh leave, lead the revitalization. And so was a matter of getting back to basics way worship for an hour and everybody went home, didn't talk to one another, didn't know any other. There's no community and getting nothing like that. That's so we started in worship. I tried to preach every Sunday. Late was the last time I was gonna preach. That's what I was taught. Oh, I saw the love people with all that I had. That's what I was taught. I sought to start Bible studies. That's what I loved to do, and that began reaching out to people in the community. And so we took a at that time a spiritual development leader, Development, community development, economic development approach, uh, to try to revitalize where we were. And, um, I spent 25 years and we've come a very long way, which is unusual in our church. I've been able to stay in one place for a long time, but, uh, long term appointments I have have their power when it's a good marriage between pastor people, people faster and between people, pastor and community. And so that's been a good mix.
spk_0: 10:12
What are some of the obstacles you think that way? Trying to forward. But you seem to not good.
spk_1: 10:26
Well, I think I think, and you you know this all too well. But I believe that one of the games that racism has played on us as black people has been this whole thing around internalized oppression on, I Think way have because And Howard Thurman talks about this in his book D's and Disinherited, because we have been deceived way often deceive ourselves, and we often think that there's only but so high we can go. There's only but so far we can go. There's only but so much we can accomplish and we tend to. Through conscious and subconscious messages, we tend to look at ourselves as always, failing, always fallen short, always being thrown in jail, always in a negative kind of context. So we start to look at ourselves as insufficient people, Uh, and when we were able to defeat that and overcome that, there's nothing we can't nothing in every facet of church and society. There's nothing making
spk_0: 11:45
that a lot of people would not say that they were before. Other challenge.
spk_1: 11:51
No way have to look within. Granted. The system has the system of oppression has done to us what has done us right struggles within. And as there's another struggle, it's really, uh, but we have to look within and stop oppressing ourselves and stop saying that we can't be what we can do.
spk_0: 12:12
So don't talk about him. It's a struggle. Super like it was a lot as far as how could be motivated. Is there something with today? Some mechanism, some organization, some some rallying point way. A similar type of energy, that kind of that tipping point. You know, this sitting on the fence way. What do you see? Is there anything any place people?
spk_1: 12:53
That was one of the questions that was run in my mind as I was coming here to see you. Yes, yes, there is. Let me say first. I don't know if we're angry enough. Um, even in this president climate, we're in love. We're angry enough, and I think part of that is, you know, there's this There's this mentality Well, I got my I got mine. I got enough toe live a nice life I don't wanna I don't wanna disturb that, et cetera. Whereas in the civil rights movement, you told my people couldn't find jobs, period me way. Can't find jobs now, but way we're not allowed to have certain job because of the color of our skin. Couldn't drink out of a certain water fountain. Couldn't use a certain back. We just had. It was just tremendous oppressions on a number of fronts. Those were still real. Today they look different, but But well, we've gotten comfortable. There's a certain complacency about us. Um, what will tip that over? I don't know. Um, I I do believe what will change it is the passion and energy that we're seeing through a lot of our young people who are tired of oppression, Period. Um, I think we saw some of that expressed the black lives matter. Um, we've seen some of it through a lot of young black activists. Even in this whole gun violence piece, there's they're they're black young leaders that are stepping up Thio to claim a voice in the midst of a topic on which were often ignored because way get shot up every day. Nobody says anything. Uh, I think it's gonna come from the younger generations who are angry with with the oppression they see. And the church will need to tap into that because in large regard, you know, in large regard we are not engaged enough with four folks, and we're not engaged enough with young folks. And Jesus was poor Anya when he started to move his movement. And we need to learn from that.
spk_0: 15:28
Yeah, we got it. Year this year, 18. A special session around. This is not a conversation on human sexuality, but, uh, one of the questions. I think that I was out of this conversation.
spk_1: 15:57
Well, let me start off by saying, um I don't believe anybody should be oppressed, Period. Whether or not you agree or disagree with a particular issue, no one should be oppressed. Oh, so we'll start there. Um, what I I am intrigued about those we're arguing over sex in 2018 were arguing over sex, and there are more black men locked up in prison than there were in slavery. Um, we are not getting an education. Racism is going is rampant. People are starving to death in this country, white and black. There's more white poverty in this country than there is any other poverty. My folks don't like to talk about poverty amongst our own people, their 10 million more poor white board people in this country than anybody. There are people who are really, really being oppressed. And here we are as a church talking about sex argued about six. Um so I I think we need to weigh need to get on with it. You know, we don't need to impress anybody. We need to remove walls, repression and get on with what really, really is most important in life. I find it interesting because I am a delegate that we're going to ST Louis to resolve this issue, to attempt to resolve this issue of human sexuality. We're going to We're gonna be in the city, right next door in Ferguson, Missouri, where Michael Brown was shot and killed and he still won't talk about a deal with suppression and outright violence and killing of young black males are not talking about that. We're in ST Louis, notoriously one of most racist cities in the United States of America. The state of Missouri state of Missouri is on is on the tourism list as one of the top 10 places where black people or people of color traveling through the state need to travel with caution. Wow. And we're not even tongue. My race, we're told my sex and and to be frank. Oh, use usually, Um, well, in in in the black church, we always knew who was okay. You knew that people would mention this. Mentioned that and you knew who was who. But you you dealt with that. You and you love the person. And you went on with life because there were greater things for us to deal with. Um, that's that. That was traditionally black Culture Church called. I feel like this has an elitist flair to it that, um um is disturbing and and, um, we need to We need thio. We need to call that what it is. Oh, wow. We are eliminating any impression that maybe that people may be experienced and we don't talk about that. I would I would venture to say that I'm in the vast minority. Yeah, we don't speaking like that because we're afraid of losing particular political posturing and positioning. If we just tell it, like it ISS
spk_0: 19:31
Church makes us. I think it's gonna talk about this way with anything other than Christian. It would be okay. Real quiet. Go These issues, like down to talk about? Yeah, but have them resolved in the context of the relation with Christian hands to world. Yeah, Another. So look, I e a little bit at a time e appreciate Joe. Fortunate Ministry,
spk_1: 20:13
sir. She talks about you all the time. It's
spk_0: 20:17
great being with you. Thanks for I hope you come back.