spk_0: 0:00
wait 20 questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is Vincent Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race, United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests, all lots of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations. Way. Welcome. Let's go with us today on CASS. We have continuing conversations on racism, But years ago, the statement of churches unfinished. So today I'm gonna share with Bishop. Some questions on the 1st 1 of course, is obvious. Believe racism remains the most challenging issue for the church and society.
spk_1: 1:27
Vincent, First of all, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be able to be with you today. Yes, I think the ISMs of steel with us and most especially the church is unfinished. Business is definitely racism.
spk_0: 1:41
If you were asked over these last 15 years, we have been part of the United Methodist Church. How would you grade race relations?
spk_1: 1:52
I think you know, doing the probably the 70 60 seventies and eighties. We made significant progress where I would probably rate it up around six. But I think within the last maybe 2 to 3 years, especially on the after the election of Barack Obama is the first African American president, and then subsequently I think we've gone back on. I would probably raided it around to at this
spk_0: 2:20
point, that's a beauty. That's a big difference 62. But I think that the cultural aspects of that,
spk_1: 2:30
yeah, in terms of society, probably much lower. But I think in terms of the church, even more so because we should know the Scriptures and we should have made better progress and what we've done. I service president of the General Commission on Religion and Race, and we deal with that issue in the church every day. So So it's like we've gone backwards instead of forwards,
spk_0: 2:51
So we've had these years together united. Do you feel that merger has helped or hindered potential for?
spk_1: 3:02
Well, I think it helped in terms of the opportunities that were presented to us. Whether we took fully advantage of those opportunities, I'm not sure there were some things that I think we could have done better. And so as a result, if you compared where we were as black people before merger, you will find that we had strong with church is much stronger churches. When you see what happened to us after merger and subsequent since that time, most of our churches are you close or they died on the vine and we haven't been given any resource is no support. And then when you also pull out the leadership in terms of in it and put them in many other areas within the church, it also dilutes the leadership in the black community as well as the black church. So part of it is just some of the things that we did. Okay, cause some of the results that we're getting right now
spk_0: 3:53
and I think that's a couple of questions one is that you know, this decline, closings, closed churches. One of the outcomes for this is what can we do to turn the tide of the things that you might offer that you know of that would help churches back into a place of strength?
spk_1: 4:14
We have to be intentional first of all, we must be intentional. I'm I'm for advocating starting black churches, and especially in communities where you have a significant number of black people. Andi way need to be making sure that that leadership is cultivated and develop their way also have to sensitize people too, in terms of the contribution that blacks have made, making sure that at least the input and black contributions are incorporated into the general society in the church as
spk_0: 4:46
well. Yeah, I know that we have. Sometimes I got in the way African Americans not done the things you needed to do to make sure that race relations churches could forward. Do you see anything that we could do in that air? Helping people realize that sometimes you're giving your own way all the places that you could see, what we got in our way.
spk_1: 5:15
I think we've become complacent. That's easy to do way feel. We go weary and we'll do it and feel like, Well, that issue's already been fault. All it took was election of a president who kind of brings it the issue back to the Front four front, and we realized that there are some things we thought we had fought battles and want that we may have to fight those battles all over again. So I think we have become complacent on. We probably haven't done as much as we need to do in terms of being advocates. And being out spoken as for is the issues concern
spk_0: 5:51
the, uh the movement or struggle. Civil rights. One thing, But we discovered years ago he's had that movement. Help those two really gain some confidence and motivation for churches and communities. Do you think there's something that will be with you today that would kind of equate to that kind of energy that we had
spk_1: 6:17
well, and you see all kinds of movements that are going on even today, For example, you look at what's going on with the young people in terms of gun violence. Right now, there's movement, the women's movement, people are rising up. I think part of you know there's some things that we've learned over the years that suggests that we can come together regardless of our differences and be able to advocate for cause of justice that's been a hallmark of the black church for many, many years. And as I said. I think sometimes we become complacent. We feel like, well, those battles were fought. Well, I'm getting too old at all. But I think we've got to begin to make sure that this next generation understands not only our history but also some of the things that are most dear to you in the unfinished business. In terms of the charge
spk_0: 7:04
way have so many issues, I guess that we face today one of them today with general context conversation. Human right, How do you think? Do you believe that this conversation impacts black lecture? I'm not
spk_1: 7:20
so sure whether it's our conversation, I really don't, uh, Vincent, because a cz I was growing up as a young boy in the black church. We had persons who were gay, and no one ever called people out. No one excluded anyone. There were many. We were taught respect way. We're also taught diversity. I can remember. Even during the days of segregation in the black church, my father was methods Pastor would invite Anglo pastors into the congregation to be able to bring a message in that preach. I never saw that hand extended up the other way around, but but we were taught to be able to respect persons who were different and be able to make sure that if they were part of the church, that we acknowledge that and became part of it. So I'm not so sure whether it's our issue really meant the black churches always included people. I don't ever know anyone who has ever pushed out or even set aside our excluded because of their sexual orientation. That's just been my experience.
spk_0: 8:31
I used to work with James Shops. He helped me to understand the exception of BMC are one word he used was gadflies right on. So I'm wondering today, do you have any idea about how gmcr is kind of living up to that? That that kind of terminology?
spk_1: 8:55
Well, yeah, you know, we've kind of become, as I said, a little bit complacent. We've lost kind of are sense of being and also a sense of purpose. But I think we're getting that back that I really do because I think it always someone always needs to kind of agitate it, maybe stir up the situation a little bit. And BMC are played that role with the fact that I'm a bishop of the church. I owe it to the individuals. I could start calling them by name, who made sacrifices, who were criticized, was put down and talked about for which they said was right thing to do and for as a result, I benefited from their advocacy and for their agitating and stirring things up. That was BMC. Ours roll on, and they did it very well. So as a result, I think we've got to go back to our original purpose and a reason for being. And it was to make sure that the church was inclusive at all levels and then hip educator younger generation about not only pass, but also we're going in the future
spk_0: 9:58
generation connections that we should the person to help them understand that these are really authentic relationship, your little part of me and somewhere along the way that's not good people field. I talked to a number of young people as well that there's this disconnect generationally. So how how would you suggest place that way could encourage our younger African American supposed to lady
spk_1: 10:41
Well, you know in the context. For many, especially Malina, Millennials and Gen Xers are different. Many of them grew up in a world where there was no segregation. They don't know anything about Jim Crow any of those issues, and so as a result, that context is different. So even when you start talking about segregated society, they look at you kind of like what you're talking about, we don't know anything about it is if it did not exist. Eso First of all, I think we've got to be able to make sure that we make connection with where they are, who they are on. Then help educate them in terms of what making sure that they have a firm foundation standard that I think is the first step. That gap has got to be bridge. There is a gap here, right? It is against. But the gap is one in which was created because of the different context that the younger generation grew in grew up in and the one in which we grew in It was different and as a result, because I experiences were different way have different perspectives about and so that's why I think the conversations we need to just continue to make sure that we're able to connect with each other, just recognizing. Yeah, it's gonna be different way all you know it. Experiences have been
spk_0: 11:54
different that there may be to be some some special opportunities for everyone to sit on top of that kind of workshop, the ideas that came from the past. So anything that we know that it happened now. But what's gonna be phased for those who are. You know, we talked about millennials, but also those who are coming behind them. And then there's another generation, you know, they keep coming. Yeah, that's right. So so so really Give people an opportunity to hear and understand how we've done what we've done it. Why not trying and how they might be a benefit from those lessons and how we may be able to learn from them, how they are affected by what they inherit.
spk_1: 12:38
That's right. That's right. To make those close those gaps.
spk_0: 12:42
Strike. That's right. Well, three things you know that we could really look at for a better outcome of the black church over the next few years is what I'm asking. You think two or three things or maybe one that, you know, as we look toward the future. What can we kind of see? What three things that we could do that could help our churches and after exactly has become better not only in the church as it sits on a corner, but also in its relationships to race. And those are
spk_1: 13:12
Yeah, I think we gotta begin to, uh, start where black people are, and, as you probably know, where were all over the planet. I just got back from Germany on I was there and I was surprised because of diversity. Even in Germany, there were black people from everywhere that where there is, will their contacts is so not the stereotype of and assume that black people only in one part of the world. So we've got a look at it from a global context Right now, we also have to deal with the prison situation because a lot of our young black males are in the US, are locked into a prison system. And so we've got to recognize that we've got a two least acknowledge that and recognize that there's a lot of work that has to be done in that area when less than I retire. That's one of the here is that we're gonna invest our time in just to say, you know, it's important for those of us who have served his leaders, is to be able to connect with our brothers and sisters who have been locked up and sometimes who don't have a future in society, to see that God loves you and that you are a part of the kingdom of God and making sure that they hear that and understand that because they too have a story. The tale and they also can add to this conversation about connecting people together
spk_0: 14:32
through, uh, well, is there anything that you would like to share before close Today? I don't have any other questions,
spk_1: 14:43
will not think also, we've let our white brothers and sisters off the hook too long, as if to suggest that somehow you know they're not part of this conversation. It's not to suggest that they can fix it or that they have all of the answers. But I also think that in light of where we are as a society, uh, we too need to hold them accountable either some of the rhetoric, but also some of ways in which they to participate in racism and what I do you call white privilege where that as a result of them benefiting as a result of what has happened over the past few years, there's a part that they got to play as well, and I think the church has to make that happen.
spk_0: 15:28
Thank you for your time. Great conversations to see after a while and hope that we go through this. There may be some of the conversation then we could have later on, so I thank you.
spk_1: 15:42
Thank you for the opportunity.