spk_0: 0:00
wait 20 a year questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is events and Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race and United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests from all walks of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations. How do you believe Do you believe is still remains one of the most challenging issues for the church decided today. Do you believe that that's invest in issue today?
spk_1: 1:16
Yeah, I absolutely believe that racism remains a significant challenge for the church today. For all of the I don't want to say celebratory moments that we have experience in the United Methodist Church of the Denomination, becoming Maur open, more inclusive, more diverse both in the United States and globally. There is still this element of unfinished business that they back to, uh, the decision, though give them, um, and then the decision thio to dismantle the essential jurisdiction. I mean, even until this day, I mean, there's there has been this legacy of promises that haven't been completely kept because the church really struggles with dealing with the power and privilege issues that undergird racism not only in the church but in society. Which is also why we struggle as a denomination to be relevant and build those kinds of cross cultural relationship as a predominantly white institution in in a world that is becoming less. And I think they have a lot to do with, you know, this unfinished business of eradicating racism, right?
spk_0: 2:44
You know, over the years, I've been ableto be a part of some of the some of the event I was a part of the General Conference, um, conversation when we did. You know why we stayed and the whole repentance issue and that that was interesting and and I don't know what the outcome of that was, if any. I think that was in 2008. Pittsburgh. But over the past 50 years, especially since the merger would how would you place our our war are great on race relations between one and 10 and quiet?
spk_1: 3:25
Well, I would say Maybe, maybe if I And I guess the reason that I would say that is because we've done in many places, not all but many places. We've done a fair job in the How would I call it the The symbolic advances on the you know. So, for example, much of the early work of de corps. Um, and the early work of inclusion and integration. Um, Post 68 merger. Was this bringing in, uh, black leaders, ethnic leaders, its dividend places of leadership within the church. So we have seen over this 50 years that you can find You know what again? Depending on where you look, you can find examples of people of color who have capably lead or bid first in significant places. We do. We've We've done this work of Okay, Yes, we will. We'll will elevate. Folks will elect, bishops will add the guest in the cabinet will put, um, pastors and significant appointment. Um, and yet the real work in terms of transforming the e sauce of the church is how it, uh, reorganizes itself systemically of how that have this work trickling down to the local church experience closing gaps in terms of pay equity between a clergy of color and their white counterparts have similar education and experience. All of those meaning full. All of the all of these all the games have been meaningful. But you know, the one where the the referee, really the road intact system, um, and impact our ability to be in relationship with people. We've not done very well in that way. We do a good job at the photo opportunity, but we can show lots of different color faces in significant places. But that But that work of the deeper work of changing powers and Principalities and system that work we've not been very good at.
spk_0: 6:02
Yeah, it seems that a lot of discussion about you know, change and not a wobble is they will tell you in sociology. But riel, systemic change doesn't really occur until people become serious about making making power moves on by using resource is and also position to include people of color and also make sure that, uh, that inclusion is not tokenism. And I think that's one of the challenges that we faces. Well, but even with all of that, you know, I think people may talk about how the church has done. Ah, pretty good job. But in spite of that, you know, we still had declining churches, closing churches, and it just seems like, um, we don't have an upswing on this, do you? Do you have anything that you would propose that my help turn the tide and in some way not not so much about church growth, but maybe the attitude and understanding that people have about relations, racial relationships that could help, Um, us a denomination.
spk_1: 7:17
Well, I think that it would be helpful if we took. When I say we, I'm really meeting particularly communities of color. We would appreciate a strategy that is both top down and bottoms up what? I mean, but that is so much of our common energy. Um, it is tried to add, were changed high up in the system. But institutions will change, you know, they they don't change. They adopt changes or adapt to changes that are already happening. The civil rights movement was already underway and we like we like to believe that the civil rights movement changed, changed the institution, but really, that movement was already, um, becoming embedded in the people with the media starting to cover, you know, riots. And to put the face so off bigotry on the front of newspapers, it provided a ground swell where people perceptions began to change. And in the institution, adapted adopted. The changes that were already happening was amongst the people. And I think that the same could be true for the church. We definitely need leaders in in high places that are opening doors and who are are continuing to point the vision towards something better. And at the same time, I think that Maur of our energy, our resource is in our commitment needs to be, uh, with people on the ground with ethnic churches doing this work of opening hearts and opening minds and opening doors because we we see that in somebody else's work. But, you know, in ethnic communities, we don't want others. Tell me, you know, as much as we want to say that we're open their churches, that that that that are not particularly open to diversity socio economically there, um you know, cross racially. So I really do think that this bottom up approach Oh, our churches first leaders, folks on the ground using our our capital our energy. Our resource is Toby in communities so that as the change happens on the ground, the institution then become that entities at a dock was already taking place rather than thinking that the role is to change up there and somehow it will trickle down to the realities on the ground there just too many examples of how that doesn't work. Yeah,
spk_0: 10:18
yeah, The one thing that I think has some significant especially what you're saying about about change element the the cultural climate for, um for society and the cultural climate and the church don't don't seem too particularly match on the reason I say that it's kind of dealing with what you talked about. The civil rights movement, the cultural climate doing that time seemed to press people into response for for this. But as we look at the cultural climate today, do you think the movement of the day are able to impact the same kind of change that happened during the civil rights movement?
spk_1: 11:07
I do. But I think we need to be open to them looking different. I think that the movement, I think the movements will be bring about change, but this is a different time. So you expect those movements to produce the results or to look the same or to act the same or to have similar demands. I think it's part of what keeps us stuff. You know, these young people who are or talking about gun violence and who are, you know, emerging as voices of activism now, not only recently, but you know, in terms of how this is impacting communities of color and in our relationship with law enforcement. And you know all of that for a black lives matter what's happening now with, you know, students in the recent school shooting it. We have to be open to those those movement, um, operating under a different set of principles being led by different voices that are interested in different scenes. And, um, and I think that if we can kind of let go and let the period, uh oh, um, freedom emerged in a way that it's contextually relevant for today. Then we might actually see some changes, but everybody wants to see it their way. They want, you know, they wanted to look away. That's comfortable for them or the reminiscent of what they knew of the protest movement. And, um, there's a lane for everybody. So find yours and stay in and let the rest of us lift. You know, let's just sing emerged in a messy kind of way because I believe that when the change comes from whatever this movement is not just one of many. It's an infinite number of them with the collective voice of all of this change of protest. And, um, resistance kind of reaches its critical mass and boiling point. We're talking about, uh, ushering in a whole new way of being in community. So is going to produce something that we're not even ready for, and it may be a while before it happens, but, you know, I just continue to say amen, all of it, even the parts of it that I don't quite understand. And so let it be because I do believe that it's all working for good.
spk_0: 13:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that this, you know, this conversation that are these conversations that are happening across the country and also within the context of the church have have legitimacy, and they have I need t be opened up a wedding that gives people an opportunity to express, you know, a lot of times and are coming, especially the black church. We sometimes don't like to talk about certain issues. Do you think that this conversation about ah wow human sexuality does it? Does it impact of like church negatively, positively are we even is necessary for us to even address any of that?
spk_1: 14:27
Well, so once again, I think that when we would we allow ourselves to be pulled into somebody of conversation and I'll say what I mean by that, Then the opportunity for us to engage in meaningful conversation that is relevant for us is locked. So I believe that it is imperative or the black church to have a conversation about human sexuality. For me, that is from homosexuality. Although I think that that is a that's a big piece of, um, I think that the church says we're in a time of discerning human sexuality, but what were but that isn't what we're doing. What we're talking about is whether we'll let you know gay people in the church and officiate weather, and we call that in the sexuality, but his hour, but in our community and I would say in communities of color. In many communities there are very deep issue around, um, relating sexual abuse and harm historical harm that have been that have been perpetrated against people off color. We know that folks who are involved in human trafficking, the life hood off young people of color, being involved in human trafficking. All of that used is embedded in a systemic the reality of how our bodies have been used abused. And we need to be able to recognize that in the black community, we need to be ableto have conversations about the sexual abuse that was perpetuated. It gives our communities in slavery and how they're there are in some places till ideas about how that might have impacted the psyche of our of our temple, the emasculation of black men, the you know, the distance and franchise made of black families. All that is wrapped into a conversation about human sexuality that is pertinent. The black community. Yeah, so but we skip over all the time because some white folks somewhere have said whether or not we or gain ordain gay folks or not is a conversation about human sexuality and instead of us attending our business, which is the health and wholeness of our people mentally, physically, sexually and in every other way. We give up him into the powerful conversation, and we deny the business that is ours to do, you know? So that's what I have to say about that. I mean, I just supported for all forms of inclusion in the church. I don't have a problem saying that, and I want to be really clear that that in our that when it comes to this is in the in the black church that we need to be clear about not ready someone else's agenda become ours. And I don't mean the ordination of gay people. I think that's an agenda that impacts everybody. What I'm talking about is the health, coldness and wellness, just like
spk_0: 17:45
yeah, we're both, um, the Children of black Methodist Church renewal has, uh, sort of, uh what do you call that? Abandoned for a while and kind of made it back to a meeting this spring. But, you know, do you think I focused? And on the coffee, it hasn't been diluted with other causes, our issues and that, um, that's kind of moved us to lose our purpose and and not so much the purpose that was initially part of the movement and 68. But but But what we see as a cz motivating the church moving the church is a gadflies ous an organization that really made a n'importe impact on the decisions that were made and how the church would live out live up to its promises.
spk_1: 18:46
Well, you know, uh, thing is, this is an interesting question for me because I will say personally that I, um I'm I'm I'm one that's not convinced that the that the, uh, the best effort, oh, communities of color right now should be primarily focused at all right, responding to the institution. So I do believe that the United Methodist Church is going through a time of of anxiety and change. I believe that that change is going to happen. Um, despite in effort to try to, you know, we're we're concerned about, um, turning back the tide of decline and kind of, uh, we, uh, looks that we've revitalizing the Methodist movement. I don't I don't think that that I think it's unlikely. I think that there will be some sort of major shift change downsizing that will, ah, death of sorts that will then be come the seabed for something new to grow. And, um so I think, you know, my personal conviction is so let's let the process of dirt of of death and rebirth have this way. We all know that white Christian America is dying, and I just don't think that despite all of the efforts of Donald Trump and all of his cronies, that that's going to change. You know they're going to do a lot of things to change policies, to try to keep this power center of whiteness alive. But despite all of their efforts, no matter how successful, I just don't think that it is sustainable and that it will prevail in the end. So having said that, I believe that our caucuses, um, which at one time with the message you know in in 68 in those times when when be NPR was was created, the message church was just starting. It is decent in terms of of membership. It was kind of at an eight moment. So what made contextual or for us to be focused on the institution. But the role of institutions in social and civic life is dramatically changing. Hey, we need to do again. What we did there when we're in a whole different time doesn't seem to make much sense to me. So I would say that I could see the whole of our consciences, including B M. P R, begin to not completely abandon our use. Your you know, the image you used to be that gadflies that helped to remind the church off of it needs to be in a relationship and to be the church with respect to people who are on the margins. I believe that that we need to do that work on the ground. I believe that maybe the two are here back to the concerns to the questions to the struggles of black and brown and red communities. We've gotta work after his intersectional kind of way for us to turn back to the people who are on the margins and for us to listen with fresh ears. No one's really happening in communities and then use that as agree as a CZ away for us to begin to say so. What does it mean? for us to be relevant in doing the Mission of Christ. Given what black people with ground people with young people, with all the folks who are on the margins are dealing with in this day and age, what does relevant life changing vital ministry looks like. And that is, you know, something that I believe would be most helpful for for being PR for some of the other Costas is to do to help us, to help prepare us for the future without the institution, for it without the institution playing the same role. That is one place. Yeah, yeah,
spk_0: 23:28
yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that we do need to, um we focus and find a better way better not being that the things we've done has been been bad, but find a way Thio get better outcome. I think that we've gone through ah, lot of process, but we don't have a lot of outcome from from the process. So you know what we need to do in order to make that happen? And I guess the last the last question air and I have four years, you know what? What do you see? That we could do maybe a couple of things for a better outcome. For for black churches and communities of color on and even leadership as we go into the common years,
spk_1: 24:20
Um, I think what I think the better outcome for the church should be directly linked to the outcomes for the community. So there are no better outcome for our churches if their communities aren't experiencing better outcomes. And if we can get our heads around What that looks like what that kind of ministry looks like. It doesn't matter how many folks we've got it are you? If the people that we serve are their lives are better If the people who you know were called to to, um to be in ministry with their lives, right, better that we aren't really the church.
spk_0: 24:58
Yeah, Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's, uh that's what I believe. That's what I think. Many of the people who, uh are you serious about the surgeon and want to see the church on the nature of the truth? To be manifest would say the same thing. Now, everyone I thank you for for your time and for the for the conversation today. I know that you're busy. This is holy week and, uh, pray that you have a great a great weekend. A wonderful resurrection Sunday. And thank you so much for sharing with us today. Well,
spk_1: 25:33
thank you for having me. I appreciate
spk_0: 25:35
it. Yeah.