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wait 20 questions with United Methodist clergy and laity focusing on the 50 years after merger and how it has affected African American congregations and their communities. Mining is Vincent Harris, your host for this podcast on. We will explore over the year conversations on yesterday's perspective on race, today's context of race, United Methodist churches and also visions for tomorrow we will have guests from all walks of life, and we hope that you will be able to join us in these conversations way again today. Denis Vogel's being who is a good friend of mine on We've shared in a number of areas in ministry through the m. C. R. On is a good friend of mine. So today we're still in conversation, Dennis, about racism, the church's unfinished business. We're gonna talk to a number of people use. I'm glad I've got the opportunity for you to be here and welcome you to.
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I appreciate the
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opportunity. Absolutely Well, you know the obvious question we're gonna put on table first. Do you believe that racism remains the most challenging issue for the church in society today?
spk_1: 1:45
Um, I believe on Albert's various colors. Yes, it ISS and it is a monster we have yet detained. Way tried Thio. Calm it down in some years, even seems that it went underground for a little while. But in the last a year or so, we have seen the hidden force of racism and how it continues to impact lives, particularly black lives. And so, yes, racism remains the most challenging issue in the church and in our society.
spk_0: 2:22
Okay, And our church, these 50 years merger What would you give the church on a rating of one team and how it's work with ways Relations,
spk_1: 2:36
Um, 444
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hours as wife.
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And why are four? Well, until we get to the heart everything that we do concerning our eradicating racism eyes just if you sense a mask, we just put a mask on top of things we say you need to repair. We call our white brothers and sisters in the nomination tunnel. They need to repent for the atrocity of slavery in the central jurisdiction. And yet, while they may have given us money and helped us set up universities and colleges and things of the heart still has not been changed and racism still per me is still permeating within the life of the United Methodist Church. I sit in several chairs in this denomination, one of which is the connection table, which is the body that discerns the mission and ministry of the denomination. And in that chair, I've noticed that people of color are still relegated to inferior status. They are not recognized. They're not allowed to use the gifts and abilities to contribute to the work that is before them. Their assumptions made about one's intelligence. And, um, I'm I am a child or product of the 19 sixties. And the more things change, the more they stayed
spk_0: 4:09
the same. Yeah, that's an interesting on helpful inside for leadership, especially. And as we kind of come through this merger situation, do you think that the years that we've worked on trying to be better have either helped or hindered this whole idea of merger, I think was was supposed to help open up the doors of be born better in our relationship, so so that the church is especially African American churches. Do you believe they lived up to their potential, or have they been hindered by the merger process?
spk_1: 4:50
I believe that before the merger that we had 386,000 healthy, strong black Methodist Episcopal churches in the merger. The merger calls a lot of shifts toe happen, and once we became separated from ourselves, we no longer had the nucleus of our color and our culture and our united belief in a God who saves in spite of it became a little water down because we then had to adhere to the doctrines and the principles of a denomination rather than dealing with the God on his son, Jesus Christ, who claimed us and called us and kept us even through racism and Jim Crowism and as separatism and all of those things. So I believe that the black church was hindered also believed that the merger disintegrated some of the power that we had as by people in the Methodist Episcopal Church. We had our own jurisdictions. We had our own churches, we had our own black bishops and we did not try to have to fit in to a structure because we were already engaged and in relationship with one another. From all around the country. Every every black Methodist knew and interacted with one another because of our commonality of being black and Methodists. But during the merger, we kind of split off. Yes, we have black bishops, but those bishops are no longer in the black church. They're over in the denomination. And something happens when that occurs that they become bishops for all the people. And that sensitivity to the unique needs of black people kind of falls by the waist.
spk_0: 6:44
Sure that that you need, I need, I think one of the places I don't know deny the fact that we've had a lot of advances. But it really has done yes, our connection. Most of our churches today I know these last few years have declined. Are closing in the process. Yes, are closed. What do you think that we could do as African American leaders? To help turn the time that we see in our church,
spk_1: 7:18
we have to go back to what works and the gospel of peace. The gospel of love, the gospel of risk. Reconciliation is what draws people when they hear word of hope in the mystery, they're hopeless situations and that Jesus cares and that Jesus had died so that you may have life and have life more abundantly When we forget those that core message on when we don't preach it on when we don't share it and when we don't example it we're not drawing persons were not giving God permission to draw persons unto him. Because if we live Jesus up, God says he does the drawer, right? And so, uh, we've got got discipleship, classes and instruction manuals. We have evangelism, techniques and path ones and all the rest of that stuff. But the church is still declining, and I think the black churches declining as a result of the overall church declining. And when the church is not clear about who she is and what she is about wth e church becomes confused. And we know the confusion is a tool of the enemy. And so when we operate in confusion, then we have lost our clarity. And when we have lost our focus and that single minded this that Jesus Christ is Lord and God does the drawing, God does the saving. God is not a respected person. So, uh, we have to understand that we have to get out of God's way and let Jesus do what Jesus does through the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't mean to preach, Doc. I'm just I'm just asking
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is what? Yes, out of God's way. And I think one of the issues have been that we have put things in our only way, even obstacles in our own way of actually dealing with our own situation. Yes. Dealing with the issue of race and race relations in a 92% Anglo organization. Some speed. Uh, what? What do you think we need to do, What? One of the things that you believe that are in the way of ourselves. After that you could be moved, or Justin so that we can really tackle this.
spk_1: 9:35
We need to focus on the things that are impacting our lives and impacting the lives of our Children. And if we would focus on addressing the prison, the pipelines, circumstances with our within our culture and country, if we begin addressing the inadequacy of an educational process that has diminished to be perhaps the sixth or seventh, Um um, the sixth or seventh school system in the world that's not really serving the needs of our kids and people, we need to focus on those things that will help us become stronger. See, the the beauty of the of the central jurisdiction was that we had our own stores and we had our own doctors. And we had an old school systems and and we had our own economic development processes. And we had our own bakers and and and and and all and the like. And so when we merged in, a lot of our uniqueness became muddled and to the, uh, what they call the melting pot. And I don't even like to use that analogy because a melting pot says that you lose your uniqueness and your individual is, um and you become something other than what you are. I believe that the term more of a salad bowl is more reflective of of what God would intend for all of God's people that we retain our uniqueness. We retain our individualistic our individual contributions to the world. But yet we are just a part of what else is in the bowl. But when we lose our individuality and when we lose our sense of unique this God that we could become confused and when and then we become diluted and ideals become diluted. Our gold values become diluted because we have lost focus or who we are, who God has called us to be
spk_0: 11:39
great. You know, I think focus in on where where we need to be, where we are. Way are not. I don't think people today who want to go deeply into these issues way, always kind of justice.
spk_1: 11:55
That's right. That's right
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on these things. But you're being God. I've been through this for a number of years and one of things that I feel that we need to question and I know places as an organization is how how have we plan to address, you know, racism as it is and is, it isn't at this point in time in our history that we have not spoken up enough that would become silent over about this issue of racial justice.
spk_1: 12:29
We have been vocal, but we have not used our loudspeakers. And so being vocal says that you are still challenging and that you're still pointing out injustice and your steel recognize and, uh, systems and processes that diminish and not build. Oh, but we have not used a microphone or the loudspeaker because it seems that the church has turned a deaf ear and I could tell you why they feel they turned. I mean, why? I believe they turned a deaf ear. We've given you money. We have allowed you to become leaders within our denomination. In every sense of the word. You have Episcopal leaders. You have general secretaries. You have folk who serving our boards and agencies. You have presidents of colleges that we support. We have established help you establish a black college. What? We've done all those things. And yet we don't see the kind of fruit that we thought we would see. And so if I was a fruit inspector, I'd have to go back and say, Well, denomination, you may have provided us with money, but your morals haven't Shales. You might have given us and partner with us and establishing educational vehicles for our Children and for our culture. But your heart is still not changed. And until God changes your heart, we're going to continue toe, have this dialogue about the just and the unjust about those who are in and those who are still trying to get in. And so, until God changes the heart, Ah, folk who already believe that they've done what they were supposed to do to remedy the impact of slavery in this country. We will continue to have this dialogue, and we will continue to be fighting. But we have to fight and we have to speak up and we have to stand and And it is only through standing and speaking up and crying aloud being like Fannie Lou Hamer and says, I'm sick and tired of being second time and you, you just if you want to kill me, why should I be afraid? You've been killing me a little bit every day all my life. So So we have to continue to take a stand and continue to call people and the denomination into accountability.
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Nomination, as we see it, is rapidly changing. We're looking at a special session in 2019 that will address issues of human sexuality. Guesswork challenge For us, maybe not a challenge may be just a question. Since we had this issue of human sexuality on the table, this is black churches go into this whole conversation. Look at it. Step back until what? What is the general truth? doing processing. How does
spk_1: 15:27
well as black people were constantly reminded that it is the It is love that conquers a multitude of sins that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. If we would stand on the scriptures that build up, if we would do a deep analysis of how God is called the Christian to be changed in Christ, if we would focus on those things that bring us together rather than separate us, we might remain united, but unfortunately, their focal concerned with what other folks doing in their bedrooms. And I'm just I don't think that because I think that because we're black people and and BMC, I took a stand on this. And last year when we developed our own stance on this issue, we cannot discriminate against anybody because we know firsthand the horrors of discrimination. We know firsthand how it feels to be relegated to inferior status, to be tolerated rather than to be accepted. And if God created everything and everything that God created was good. That who am I to say? that this person is deficient because their orientation is different from my and so um, it's just I can't say the same thing. But even when we look at the Scriptures, there was a challenge. The early Christian Church of letting the Greeks in because the Greeks were different. They didn't follow the mosaic law. They didn't understand the relationship of God and the Nation of Israel, and they didn't want to let those folk in. But Paul and Peter came along and said, No sign. God said, Everybody is welcome into this relationship with me. And until we get to that notion, we're gonna continue to be divided around this issue. Now black people particularly. We have to be clear that God is not a respected person, but any person who was in Christ Jesus they are new creation. The old things are passed away and behold, all things I made.
spk_0: 17:49
Wow, We've had a good discussion on these questions that you may have something Dennis that you want to share before we before we close that
spk_1: 18:00
well, I still have hope. I have hope in spite off what I see on television. What I read in the newspaper and what I experience in my own community. I live in Chicago with Chicago, of course, has one of the highest fatality statistics, particularly dealing with black on black crime and and gun violence. And but I still see hope in the community where parents walk their Children to school and pick them up every day. I still have hope when I go to the local community centers and see that they're men and women who are given of their time, talents and energy to tutor and mentor our young people. I still have hope when I see that different denominations and churches are breaking down the barriers of what has separated them for long. Pierce a time and bringing their resource is of finances and human capital to play and making a difference in the communities where they're serving. We don't hear about those stories in the news. We don't see those things permeated in the newspapers or on our radio stations, but I see hope happening even in the South side of Chicago. In a little town called Harvey, Illinois, that was at one time one of the most prosperous south suburbs in the Chicagoland area, which is now. Ah, food desert, which is now Ah, home to desolated houses, which is now, um, uh, struggling with this school system and even into its political system. But there are still people who are willing to give of the time, the talents and the gifts to make a difference. As long as we continue to operate outside of ourselves, toe build up each other and build up the communities where we find ourselves, God is still in the blessing business. And I am still excited about the hope that I have in the Lord. Thank you, President. I appreciate it.
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And I look forward to talking with hopefully after we get through this 2019 session, you have another college.
spk_1: 20:15
I look forward to it. All right. Thank
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you.