Race and Culture UMC

Conversation with retired Bishop Melvin Talbert. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:01
Welcome to the white ice podcast where we discuss issues of race that we've buried it under the carpet on Pretend like it's Connell and culture have got to get back to agitating, standing up to making a difference to be fearless and our world today I'm your host, Vincent Harris will sit back and enjoy. All right, so we're started recording it won't be. Won't be a long time. So I just wanna get kind of justice. Give me your name. And any personal information is like this year.

spk_1:   0:45
Yes. My name is Melvin Talbot, a bishop in the United Methodist Church. In fact, a retired bishop after having served 20 years and I've had multiple positions in the church. Uh, that has afforded me the opportunity to have lots of experience. So I look forward to this conversation

spk_0:   1:14
Business tablet. Thank you for, um, accepting the time to share with me on on this podcast. This is something new for me and also for I think the listeners as well You've been a part of the church in a while, and I worked on a kind of case in many years ago. That was a conversation on the lasers, and the statement that we used during that time was racism, the church's unfinished agenda. And I do believe we still have an unfinished agenda in the church and always asked, The first question is about Do you believe that racism range one of the most challenging issues for the church in society today?

spk_1:   1:59
Uh, my this that's a little different than the way you word it here. But the way you just worded it, I would say yes. Uh, you you made it appear in the question that you asked that it is the issue. It is one of the most challenging issues that we face because there are some others and it's it has been a continuing challenge for us. Uh, at least for all of the years that I have served in leadership in the church. It has been, uh, but one of the challenging issues facing us.

spk_0:   2:41
Sure, so with that, there's been, ah, you know, the last 50 years, especially. We're still in the official year anniversary of the merger. How would you How would you grade the race relations within the Dom denomination over the last 50 years?

spk_1:   3:00
Um, to be honest, I'd have two great it at about her number five. Okay. And And the reason that I say that is we have not, uh, intentionally, as a church, um, given focus and attention to the issue of racism. We've talked about it, but we have not given it a significant focus.

spk_0:   3:35
And I think, you know, one of the things that seems to be a challenge to is that, um when when merger happened, Um, he was supposed to be a way of get advancing and growing. The church's, especially in the black church. Do you think that merger helped or hindered the potential of black Methodist churches and its leaders?

spk_1:   3:59
Um, I, uh I'm sorry to say that I don't think it helped that much. And the reason I say that is for too many people. It became an excuse to simply pull back own what we had given attention to in the years path. Um, I remember how it how the legislation were proposed and how we get. We gave ourselves something like 12 years finally get full inclusion done, and it just didn't happen. I remember some of the conferences really never bought on body into it and uh, some did, but, uh, too many of them didn't

spk_0:   4:57
you know, that seems to be a steal. One of our challenges today. I think. You know, when the expectation early on was that we would do this, Um, and it didn't happen. Um, you know, our churches seem toe not have the kind of leadership. And even with merger, I think you remember those days when the best pastors were kind of put into general agencies and put in tow the Anglo churches as cross racial appointments That points in time without churches in the climb and and all the things that have happened, what would you think would help, um, would help us a zone African American church group, a zoo whole to prosper and kind of helped turn the tide that we have there were

spk_1:   5:48
in there. Yeah, I think we need to have probably a three R for quadrennial focus. Own a recommitment to strengthening black beauties, particularly in the United States. It's not gonna happen in four years. It's gonna take time, and it's gonna happen only as the church provide key leadership. Uh, and I'm not talking about I'm obviously going to take the support of the bishops, but the bishops are not gonna be able to do it alone. We need people set aside for the purpose of intentionally revitalizing, uh, black turkeys dealing with leadership, and both clergy end lee across the connection. Sure, I agree with your yours. Indication of how the church raped the black church and took, uh, it's, uh, most qualified leaders and put him in other positions, you know, which I think was, uh, necessary at some boys, but it But what the church did not do was to give attention to replacing those people sure and giving and giving the black church what it needed in order to continue its growth. I remember the last church that I passed it before I became a pilot of the connection of serving at the conference level. Uh, well, not when I was passing in That church. We had to service is on Sunday morning. Both of them were packed, overflowing, and, uh, it was 1100 member. And today, that church, if you I don't think you could find ah, 150 people, they're on a Sunday morning, you know, and that's that's That's 11 example what has happened? Two, uh, like churches across the connection way. Just not replaced the leadership in most churches.

spk_0:   8:46
Yeah, that was one of the things you mentioned. And this is this is this is years ago I was reading from a little booklet on the central US vixen and, um, and blacks test. And you talked about the suit takes boys that, you know, the church needed. And I think there has been some the person who was over the denman the situation evangelism. But the church needed equal, really be ready to go out and evangelize and help get into the grassroots of communities. Toe really turn, turn people's lives around to help. The church would be more visible in the community. Is that something that still needed?

spk_1:   9:35
Yes. Pair of much, Very much. I can think of the church where I go now. And that church could benefit. Yeah, from that kind of thing. Uh, and, uh, it's so yes, it's needed. And it's needed, uh, from the agencies of the church that has responsive. I have responsibility for providing passed her leadership and leaving the ship in the church. And those agencies need to set aside some people, and I like that term suitcase people whose responsibility it would be, too. Go out and be with congregations that are black and, uh, give them the kind of support vessel needed to empower them for ministry. In this, in this day and age, I don't I think it's needed

spk_0:   10:44
well in that acting so well that I think that those would be people who annual got younger people that are coming up in the church not as many leaders as well as we need. But we do have some and some kind of way of giving them opportunities. Not with possibly of resource is, but with some resource is that can help provide for them and their lives it but also give them the opportunity to serve in places that really need to be revitalized and transformed. And I think that that maybe one of our one of our goals for the next two years of getting some focus could be that some sometimes that we've got no way to do you think they've been places where we kind of contributed through our own issues that relate to racism and growth. How do you think we've gotten in our own way. It's his African Americans in the church. Do you think we have?

spk_1:   11:44
Yes. Um, yeah, that's that's a tricky question. I thank you. Uh, I think you're right, in a way, kirpan. But what what has happened is we have to go back and remember how we treated those who were taken from the churches and they became whole time in the sense institutional people, years and a part of that full time was not dedicated to revitalizing black churches. So, you know, you know, and so we've we've worked. We worked ourselves to the bone doing the job that we were assigned to do. But what we didn't do was to pull some of us apart to say we want that same kind of focus that you have in what you're doing and being done in the black churches. Right? Red red isn't just pulling you out and getting the best that you can follow and not taking the time to reassess what's happening. Churches. Oh, yeah. So we need. So we need of of, uh, math infusion leadership? Sure, but ticking all the clergy leadership and I don't mean clergy that just simply focus in one area of ministry, which is you know, what we do is we often associate that with preaching. Preaching is a part of it. But we got to get people who are intricately involved and concern about the lives of people and to say people matter. I'll black folk matter. Not only do you matter, you have contributions to May and you have gift to share, and you be you need to be out there with him, inviting them to join in this venture. And they will. Yeah, I know they will, because that's what was happening in this situation where I was pasturing when I got called out to go in a conference position. One example, you know, back tens. And the famous, too. Now, the church was simply, uh, beings layers by people who were holding on the positions that they have hell for years. Uh huh. But they they didn't have the kind of imaginative leadership needed two to, uh, to get the younger generations involved. And so I was fortunate enough. Two, uh, go to young people in that church and to invite them to er participates in the large in the in the church and to indicate the positions that they wanted to be engaged with. And they came on board. And one example is the treasure of the church became a guy who wrote chicks every day in his job by computer, but that was his job. But he was so excited about being treasurer of a local church and a small entity like a congregation, so that when they we would meet every Tuesday night and look at our financial situation and we would pay Bill never time we pay a bill, he would shout another one, that he would take it in his hands, feel it. And the reason he was excited about it is because he never had a chance to put his hand on any of those six going through there with a computer. So, you know, he had a chance that look and see what we were doing and how the church was involved in the impacting lives. And it was those kind of leaders that really infused the life of that congregation because they saw how their gifts couldn't make a difference. Now that young man, you know, he he he saw where he could be helpful to that kind of gives it. He was not only concerned about about writing checks when he was concerned about modernizing how you go about financial, uh uh, raising of money in the navigation? Yes. And he was able to help generate that. So that's what we need. And we have younger generations. And now those Those people are all retired now, and and we have other generations that have come along and they need to be challenged to do the same. Sure, she and I

spk_0:   17:29
think that that's a piece that we don't talk about a lot in the search master. Why? Because the impact that was made during the civil rights movement, which was a part of that time period of emergent change, a lot of impact and community. And so, you know, our can you see any places where we have organizations that might be ableto impact the church in general. But the blasters specifically today, as we did during that period of civil rights

spk_1:   18:05
Yeah, well, um, it's it's hard to say, but we have stuff going on in our society today, and we have hate and evil going on in ways that need that need. to be callous. Um, no impressions. You just wait. Just heard about this. A young girl that died it down in Texas when the immigration authorities and two her in a dad and put some more on a bus. No attention given to their needs. And, uh, the child simply died of dehydration and and and that kind of thing. Yeah, well, um, we need to have even I know it's happening in some places, but we need to see the fight of the immigrants as our fight. Yes, you know, and get our trick is involved in there and, uh, counter that hate and And I churches get involved. If they can't go to the border, they can make their congregations of a place to welcome immigrants. Sure. And, uh and and welcome people and churches. You need to know that their ministry is that ministry is vitally needed in this day and a Yeah, and, uh, that's that's That's some of that kind of stuff that we got. We got to get involved in some of these contemporary situations and find that place and a witness. Yeah, I

spk_0:   20:02
think I think that is vital. I served and a district where there are large populations and also some generations that has been a part of the Houston area for a long time. Okay, in the community. So it's it's really important thing for us to get in well, and I've been contemporary issues are important, one in particular that that comes two months. Uh, we're in this present conversation in the general church about about human fish reality. And how does that impact the black church? A doll? If it does, do you think it impacted at all?

spk_1:   20:42
Oh, yes, it most definitely does. Um, I I'm in up in Tennessee, and, um, for a while I was really involved with some of the younger clergy in the conference on giving them in courage, miss, because my role in this in this contemporary issues And, uh, but I have to pull back because, uh, that was not what the Bishop wanted to see happening through. He decided to call those clergy end and to threaten them. And they have to pull back because they knew that the bishop made their appointment. Sure. And so I have to say to them, Look, I don't blame you. I know what this means to you. And, uh, I can't help you at that point. Because that's your bishop. I am not a bishop anymore. And so, uh, you have to make a decision. Now, if you decide to to continue this, you let me know and I'll be with you. But if you don't don't think that, uh, I feel bad because I understand what's going on. And so that's what happened. They had to pull back. And, uh so I'm I'm focusing now. Own just ah, Hansel of congregations Where past This, uh oh, are very interested in doing it in spite of what the bishop thinks and my own congregation And what what? I have what I discover to mind to myself. But, er amazed me than surprised. Is that black folk? I'm more homos. Oh, Bic. Mm. Damn right foot. Um, and and when I you know, when I was when I was, uh uh speaking thio a group of leaders from black churches, I found some of them as homophobic and even more so than the white churches. And so we gotta deal with this matter of human sexuality, and I've like churches here, and you and I know that homosexuality is a reality in black charities.

spk_0:   23:25
That's right.

spk_1:   23:25
And if if if the people who are, uh, homosexuals in our churches would, uh, protest and say we're not gonna work for the church anymore, we would seriously be in Trevor. That's right that way have

spk_0:   23:49
a large population that I think has made decisions about how they will do justice. And some of that justice may be swayed by a lot of opinion. But it's also part of, I think, the challenge that we have in racial issues because the way that these issues have come about, I think, has been precipitated by not dealing with racism. And those conversations have been difficult have with people on every level of the church. And both of us work together, actually work together with being c r remember of years. And, um, do you think that the DNC are has has done an adequate job and raising the issue a Zagat fly for change and advocacy? Racial justice?

spk_1:   24:50
Well, I I don't think so. I think I think BMC are, uh, started to deal with the issue, but the same things I discovered the same saying in B m c R that I discovered and those circuit Okay, when I when I was trying to get to get the m c r to open up to some of the issues of human sexuality. Uh, some of the key leaders that are black from across the church came to me and sit visit. Don't you receive them in law and order? Don't you believe in all of this kind of stuff? And I said, Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Mmm. Do I believe that? I've spent my whole life in the church, but I don't believe in supporting the laws that are wrong. And you and you, as I understand that went through with civil rights movement. And that's what civil rights movement was all about. Gonna fronting unjust laws. And so why is that in a different intro intro? What I found too many of them are still hiding. They're hiding behind the law. You get what I'm saying? Sure. Easel, reddit, and confronting the law. They're saying where we can't. We would be glad to do something like that. But the law says so where you You can't. You can't. You can't have it both ways you've got to decide what's right and wrong and do what you think is right and just that s you had a costly That's politically unite.

spk_0:   26:49
No, it is Carlson, and I think that's one of the challenges. You know, I think it was fear Lincoln who did the book on the dilemma, that very topic of the the sixties report. But I think that he was really clear about how we and the church, especially in the black Church, have not been strong and standing up for racial justice. Because if we don't believe in ourselves, I think way end up taking on the the form of 11 people's lives. And that's what the White Ice issues about. Anyway, I know you room with the story of the ice being colder for the the White Store than it was for the black store. Oh, okay, that buying that ice because it was colder devices called stories go. I think even with this unfinished agenda of the church that we we have a lot to deal with internally. But we also have to communicate and educate externally about who we really are and how our communities I need leadership that can add a plea, addressed the issues that we re safe today. And I wanted to ask you before before we go, you know, if you had any any prescriptions, anything that you have kind of leaned over the years you'd like to share that might help us. As black churches and black leaders become better at doing what God is columnist to do as we face racism aside, move into the future.

spk_1:   28:29
Yeah, I I came to the conclusion you're you are aware that I have complaints a complaint filed against me for for dealing the same gym, that waiting, yes, and that complaint that resolved. But I did a 2nd 1 and that one hasn't been resolved, that when it's still in the hands of the jurisdiction and it's and it's there waiting for the action of them of the special session of the General Conference before it is, uh, um picked up and and dealt with again off course. I'm not worried about it. I, you know, with my colleagues in the Western jurisdiction, I know that they would treat it with justice. I I think I think we have the prescription given to us by the late Dr Martin Luther King when he talked about, uh, Love Love, uh, as being the motif. More living out relationships and justice means having full respect for the rights of every person, irrespective of the race, gender, sexual orientation. Um, now that's what that's what the sixties were all about. Now we didn't talk about it that much from the gender and race side, but the same The same geological perspective is right there for us as we deal with these issues. And that's what motivated me because you to take a Sam and Thio make my statement at the 2000 and 12 general Conference, I decided that I could no longer as a bishop, operate with integrity, seeing my sisters and brothers who are gay and lesbian being mistreated the way they are. And I tried hard to work within the counselor bishops to get, uh, some others to join me and everyone you know, they would hear me out. And then when it finally came to commitment, well, they weren't quite ready to take that stand. And I had to, uh, find the back a way out. I decided to give it up, and I say, Well, God, I guess it's not meant for me to do this, you know, because I can't get any of my colleagues to join me. Sure, just like you and I are talking now. Ah, voice said to me, You can do it, Okay. And it And I said, Whoa, where did that come from? And it was that you can do it. In other words, you know, we wait on others to do something so that we can join in with it. But we don't want to be the ones to initiate it, right, Because it's costly, it's uncommon. And so, uh, I I knew what I was doing When I took my stand. I knew I was laying it on the line and I was prepared to go all the way in if it meant, uh, letting my consecration and ordination go. So what? And I'll never forget. I was sitting here at home, around the table, around the eating table, in the eating the breakfast nook, and the lady was here cleaning our house, a white woman. She was going to all of my stuff cleaning. And then, uh, she said, I know you and I said, Oh, how do you know me? She said. You as a person that married these two men down in Alabama? I said, That is right And I said, You know, they may defrocked me for doing that and she said, What is? What happens? Defrocked. And so I told all of that paper. Yeah, well, wow, that was profound. You know, when he she was able to see through all of that and say, You know what happens Doing well, right? And, uh, if they defrocked us, that's nothing but paper. It's It's the new, she said. It's in you s so that's that's what we gotta do is have people who the spirit is that work in them.

spk_0:   34:18
That way we can stir up a spirit of, um participation and fighting racism, a CZ We move into the future and all the ISMs and injustices that we face in the church. Because people they are depending on us to be the ones to help move forward into a better life and a better future for those that are coming. I want to thank you for your time. Eyes. Yeah,

spk_1:   34:49
one other. Let me say one other thing. So don't underestimate the new generation of people coming along, and I have seven grandchildren. And when we had all of them grandchildren and Children with us this past thanks, give me and rather than just having a normal Thanksgiving when you know you go around the table and talk about what you're thankful for, sure, I decided that I wanted to engage these young people and what was going on in contemporary life. And so I got that going by saying, You know, they were talking about this and talking about that, and I said, I noticed some of you mentioned L G B T. Q. Do you know what that is? And they looked at me and one, Yes, we know what that is. And they cited what it is and talked about it. And they said, Our generation is far ahead of where we are in the church. And what we need is for our churches to be open, to accept us. And I'm thinking around this medal. My God! Oh, my God! Vision People are ready. Yeah, they're ready. Well, then I thought, obviously not all of them. But at least my my grandchildren, they were there ready.

spk_0:   36:33
There is, uh, if there's an atmosphere, I think in the nation and also in our communities, that has started to have these conversations at a different level. And I think that's what's going to to bring us to the table again, as people have died, too, Really help move us out of the places that may have had people polarized in these places. So thank you for for all your stories and for most of all, your commitment and your life that has been served in the church and especially around racism and racial racial justice. And hopefully when we get through this conversation and this year I've got a few more to do that we can kind of have a follow up and see how things are in Mayor June and talk about some things that they kind of knew forward again. So thanks and I appreciate you. I hope you do well and be, well, it's willing to and take it easy. I know you're probably still trying to go places that you've always gone, but it's time to relax,

spk_1:   37:43
you know? You know, that's true. You you nailed it. I had to finally, uh, cancel a meeting for me. That was not easy to do, because I just can't do all the things I used to do well. And I have to pull back.

spk_0:   38:05
Yeah, you served well. And yes, thank you for for being being? Yes, taking time today.

spk_1:   38:12
Well, I'm kind of lighting to do it. Oh, I'm open to staying with you through this tyranny to the point that I can and anything that I can do to help. Don't have a state to call him. How

spk_0:   38:26
do you make sure you tell me I

spk_1:   38:29
should win. All right. All right. You make Christmas happen.

spk_0:   38:34
Thank you for tuning in to see you next week.